Policy Talk:Canon

• Archive 1 (July 2008-February 2009)

Total rewrite

After working on this for a very long time, here is my total rewrite of the Policy. It is the result of the discussions we had on this talk page (and others) and, of course, in no small part of my personal vision on how this issue should be adressed. I honestly do think that while the wording was changed significantly, the meaning is essentially the same and that I have adequately managed to cast our agreements into words. I have also elected to be bold and just implemented the change without re-starting the discussion (sorry Revanche and Scaletail), but I felt I should let the result speak for itself. If it turns out that there is no consensus to support my work, feel free to revert it. The missing templates can (and will) be created and added to the articles in question in a week's time or so, provided that the policy is accepted. Feel free to discuss. Frabby 13:40, 2 November 2009 (UTC)

Wow, Frabby, that's fantastic. I think it encapsulates all our prior discussions. It's been worth the wait :-). My only nitpick is that I think stating that 'BTW does not seek to define canon' is a bit confusing. I know what you mean, but I think it would be helpful if it is explicitly stated that we are adhering to CGL's own, internal canon policy. While we are not determining canon, it is also not left totally up to the judgment of the reader. --Scaletail 00:40, 3 November 2009 (UTC)

But it is, Scaletail. We are differentiating between fanon and official products. Whether an article (or a portion of it) is canon is left up solely to the reader.

Some past things (rules, characters, arcs, etc.) are considered apocryphal, others are now absorbed and the definition gets even further muddled by gold stars on the CBT forums. By backing away from ever attempting to 'answer' what is canon, we keep the harsh feelings muted/sated. Canon as defined by TPTB, is addressed in the article Canon, rather than BTW's Policy:Canon. --Revanche ^{(talk|contribs)} 23:33, 19 December 2009 (UTC)

Agree, Frabby: well done. I think its simpler, cleaner and easier to understand. I'm still not thrilled with the various colors used for the tags, but understand better now the intent and the irritant factor is low for me. I made a few minor copy-edit changes that don't change the character of the policy. --Revanche ^{(talk|contribs)} 23:40, 19 December 2009 (UTC)

Moved the old discussion to the bottom of this Talk Page

...because that discussion is essentially obsolete with the new page. Not sure if it could/should be moved into an archive page, and I don't know how to do that anyways. Frabby 10:41, 20 December 2009 (UTC)

Archived this for you. --Revanche ^{(talk|contribs)} 17:34, 20 December 2009 (UTC)

Default to "Canon" or "official"?

Revanche marked his last edit to the page as a minor one, and mostly he cleaned up the wording. However, there is one bit that is not as minor as it might appear at first: In the second part of the policy, he changed the text from "BTW articles are considered to discuss canonical issues by default" to read "BTW articles are considered to discuss official issues by default". While I can see where he's coming from, especially considering that the policy is not to decide on what is what, he has actually put his finger on the weak spot of the entire policy: Namely that it should not strictly use any tags in the first place; applying the tags does some sorting already, even though it follows the official guidelines. See, if the articles would cover "official" sources by default then the "Apocrypha" tag would be superfluous, as all apocryphal material is always official. Only fan-made stuff is not. It is really the (clearly) canonical stuff that needs to additional tag. Therefore, for lack of a better wording I suggest reverting "official" to "canonical". Please discuss. Frabby 10:41, 20 December 2009 (UTC)

You've hit on my problems withe the tags, right there. I feel that -due to the nature of the universe being told from many different in-character perspectives- almost everything is apocryphal and where one thing is stated to be true from one perspective (say Capellan), another perspective may indicate its lack of truth (say FedSuns). The genecaste is a good example of this. Even TPTB claim whatever you want in your game works, they just provide the backbone from which to work. To me, official is anything that is or has been licensed, even though it may no longer be valid. For example, some of the BattleDroid 'Mechs no longer exist or in the manner in which they were produced. They are official, but -due to their current nature- would enjoy one of the 'Apocrypha' tags.

I saw the inclusion of any tags other than fanon as possibly allowing for further digression as to what is canon or not (indeed, we've already had one 'contributor' claim his fanon is just as valid here as any of the official stuff and therefore not needing a fanon tag). Instead, I prefer to leave it un-judged, other than 'official' or 'fanon'. Those lines are quite clear for the vast majority of us.

I compromised when it came to the tags, because...why fight something like this? But calling something canon is going to confuse our mission statement in regards to that, and I say that because I am confused as to what is canon when we try and determine it. That's why I changed it from 'canon' to 'official' because I truly thought this is what you meant and that 'canon' had slipped in. Otherwise, the title of that section ("Unofficial material must be segregated from official material") seems to argue differently than what is stated in the paragraph itself. If its not clear to me...--Revanche ^{(talk|contribs)} 17:47, 20 December 2009 (UTC)

We could go by different way stating this. Old Canon? Obsolete Canon? BattleDroids 'mechs for instance are being introduced into canon material by way of Age of War era material. Battledroids themselves came out before BT Universe was finalized. Personally, since Battledroids was earliest game, hasn't been reflected in canon materials until recently. Like the unseens of old, they too are not seen. Thus these re-imaging now introduced. If you trying classify this I'd say go with pre-Battletech if its relating directly with Battledroids material. As for other things, such a Genecaste, listing them as Canon Rumor arguable best way to go. Its canon, but its not solided information.Its too bad we can't having rating on how reliable information is printed now. Example of the Jihad Secrets: The Blake Documents: All 50 Divisions of the Word of Blake are listed. With gleems on what their doing from perspective of intelligence report. Which means is not rock solid, but darn close. Maybe we should have rating system 0-9 on reliability of source material on somethings? -- Wrangler 01:19, 21 December 2009 (UTC)

No, with all respect due to you, but no. We, the Editors of BTW, should never be the ones to determine what is canon and what is not. Everyone has an opinion, and you'd have such a scale being railed against on each and every place it was used to rate an article. That very idea would cause people to say, "BattleTechWiki says that Event Alpha or Weapon Tech Beta is Canon Level High. They don't know what they're talking about." We don't want to be a source of opinionated articles, but ones that are well-researched and fact-based. Verifiability is on the verge of being a policy and neutrality is one of our Five Pillars. Using an opinion-based rating system would detract from the verifiability we strive for and the neutrality we demand. Sorry, but I cannot back such a method. (Too strong? )

As for utilizing differing degrees of canoncity...simplicity is the key. Anytime we have to explain to each of ourselves (major contributors) what we think is canon and by what age or degree, we're removing the simplicity of the policy for the average or less-active editors.

I think, Wrangler, the very concept we're discussing here may be forking, as an example of what Frabby is bringing up for discussion. He and I are simply debating the use of the words 'official' and 'canon' in the Canon policy, rather than the need to expand the policy as a whole. (Take a look at the archived discussion to see how detailed and lost we got in the initial discussion, before it was cemented it in my February policy and then simplified with Frabby's November one.)--Revanche ^{(talk|contribs)} 01:37, 21 December 2009 (UTC)

I think you both misunderstood me, in different ways. :)

Wrangler, you fell into the trap that I tried to adress within the Canon article. Some canon only exists in the form of Canon Rumors. But even these are canon, being rumors witin the universe. Credibility is never an issue. Instead, the question is whether or not a given real-world product can be said to officially contribute its content to the shared BT universe. Technically, there is only canon and non-canon, but the apocryphal articles stand out as special because they are neither clearly canon nor non-canon. As for BattleDroids stuff such as the Ostroc mk II, I'd consider it apocryphal (and I have been meaning to write its article for some time).

Revanche, what I tried to say within the policy was that an article needs no tag (i.e. default) if there is nothing to suggest that its subject is anything but canon. Conversely, the tags are needed (exception to the rule) where that is not the case - apocrypha and non-canon/fanon. I think it needs to be pointed out in the respective articles that these have issues with canonicity, which I adressed through the tags. So in this sense, the tags don't actually decide something, but point out where there might be an issue (which is not applicable to most sources and subjects). Phew. Words fail me, I hope I brought my point across and perhaps somebody else can find the right words to put into the policy. Frabby 20:27, 21 December 2009 (UTC)

Ouch, hope i recover from that mental trap. So are you guys going come up with tags to point out...hmmm articles that may that are canon, but may not be straight truth? -- Wrangler 20:56, 21 December 2009 (UTC)

Wrangler, check out where the policy addresses the "Canonicity" section of articles to answer this question of your's. --Revanche ^{(talk|contribs)} 21:23, 21 December 2009 (UTC)

Frabby, I have no problem with the tags, and have included a new one of my own (to solve a problem where fan stories and articles were being lumped into the wrong categories when the fanon tag was used). To be honest, I'm not 100% onboard with the need of the tags, since the inclusion of the "Canonicity" section could address this, but I'm not heartbroken about it, either.

So, with that cleared up, can you take another stab at the original question you posed, about the use of 'canon' vice 'official' in the policy paragraph? Thanks. --Revanche ^{(talk|contribs)} 21:23, 21 December 2009 (UTC)

Pics from video games

I know that the video games aren't considered canon, but what about using them as a source of pictures for the articles? Obviously, this would only apply to pictures that don't contradict anything (including the existing picture, if any), but it seems like some detailed, full-color shots might help some of the articles. --Artanis 19:37, 12 December 2009 (UTC)

Can you give examples of where/in which articles you would want to insert pictures from computer games? Frabby 20:04, 12 December 2009 (UTC)

Mostly the ones where the existing pics are really not that great right now, especially the front-on wireframe-ish ones like the Uller and Thor. Also, pretty much anything in the MechCommander intro video would be worth at least considering. --Artanis 20:30, 14 December 2009 (UTC)

I don't think there's any problem with this, so long as the game the image is taken from is linked in the pictures description in the article. This tells readers that the image is from a video game, so it shouldn't be too confusing as far as canon versus non-canon is concerned. --Scaletail 22:25, 12 December 2009 (UTC)

I was quite fond of the MechCommander graphics myself. The only question is that those illustrations generally only apply to the Primary configurations in the case of omnimechs. You can refit the mech however you wanted and it would still look the same. ClanWolverine101 21:02, 24 March 2010 (UTC)

Fanon tag color

A new point of discussion: the fanon tags, to me, give off the appearance of a warning by using the color red, rather than the vibe of a notice or announcement. I've had to re-add the tag to the Suomi Warders stories. Though Seth didn't indicate why he took them off, in the act of creating a fanon warning tag for his user page, I reflected that we reserve the color red for the higher levels of warning for a reason. The use of the color on fanon tags may give off the feeling we're warning the reader (and the author) that there is something wrong with 'this page.'
I'd like to suggest we utilize a different color. Maybe white or Sarna gold? --Revanche ^{(talk|contribs)} 12:35, 22 December 2009 (UTC)

Old Game Rules

How are we going to treat out-dated rulebooks? Do we consider them as canon? I often see sources such as Maximum Tech and Master Rules refered to. Should these references be replaced with the TW/TM/TO/SO when possible? Should old rules be present on the site at all? --Neufeld 14:34, 24 March 2010 (UTC)

It really depends upon the context. If a rule has changed, an an article is referencing the rule, then I'd image it should point to the current book. But, if it hasn't changed, then it can reference all the books, so that any reader can use what they have on-hand. Simple answer: old citations should not be blindly updated with new ones. Do you have an example in question?--Revanche ^{(talk|contribs)} 15:21, 24 March 2010 (UTC)

Since some players whom aren't update, they may be using the older names for rules. Such as Level 3 for instance. Some players maybe still USING older Battletech Master Rules Revised and Maximum Tech, that should be treated as they are. Level 3's replacement rules, Advanced and Experimental Tech are treated differiently since they split up Level 3's rules up and add new ones. -- Wrangler 15:57, 24 March 2010 (UTC)

Yes, Wrangler correctly guessed that caught my attention, talk about Level 3 rules. There's also the issue of potential confusion caused by references to old rules. Maybe old rule stuff should be marked in some way? --Neufeld 16:10, 24 March 2010 (UTC)

I'd be open to ideas as to how. But, rules aren't so much our focus as universe is. We try and shy away from discussion of the actual rules and get into the character of the universe. --Revanche ^{(talk|contribs)} 18:28, 24 March 2010 (UTC)

In that case, should all rules be separated out from fluff? Something like this: Dual Cockpit? --Neufeld 18:50, 24 March 2010 (UTC)

I kinda like it. I think it needs to be a less bold color (maybe the Sarna gold?). But, I'm also of the belief we have to answer the question: is it necessary? Between you, me and every other Editor here on BTW (keep it quiet ), I'd like us to approach BTW as in-character Sarna (Sarna University?) researchers from far in BT's future, looking back on these events leading up to the 32nd century, uncovering historical data. Therefore, things like yor break-out (from character) would be appropriate. However, if we're simply 21st century Real World fans, then that kind of break-out is not necessary (it can be argued).--Revanche ^{(talk|contribs)} 19:18, 24 March 2010 (UTC)

My own choice would be a reddish hue. Just wasn't motivated to try to find the perfect color. Something that makes it more fade into background rather than stand out would be preferable. --Neufeld 19:24, 24 March 2010 (UTC)

Take a look at my edit. I'd be interested in seeing your color concept.--Revanche ^{(talk|contribs)} 19:35, 24 March 2010 (UTC)

Associated Rules

This is an out-of-universe game rule.

OLD: This is a game rule that is no longer valid in the current ruleset.

Looks better than gray, but I still favor red for some reason. Maybe it's because yellow is the Davionista color? See red example box above. --Neufeld 19:57, 24 March 2010 (UTC)

I understand your (possible) dislike for the color because of nationalistic styles, but I'm working solely from the perspective of what fits the established site colors. I was actually thinking of even making it a darker yellow/gold (#FC0) (see your above example), but think the original example (#FFFFE0) is a better fit (less glaring). I just want to find something that stands out from the 'character' of the article, but doesn't distract the reader as uncharacteristic of the site. --Revanche ^{(talk|contribs)} 11:36, 26 March 2010 (UTC)

I know you like red, Neufeld, but please don't use it. Anyone who's red/green colorblind (like my Dad) will have a hard time reading the content.

If you absolutely must use red, please use the Contrast Analyzer to be sure your content can be seen.

Rev if you're getting stuck on the color to use, you may want to check out the Color Blender tool that Eric Meyer put on his site. It's saved me a lot of time. (It shows that #FFF1B9 and #FFECA2 might be good colors for the note background color. Then use standard #FFCC00 for border color.)--Mbear 12:15, 26 March 2010 (UTC)

I like the lighter yellow much better. The gold one is too bold. --Neufeld 12:27, 26 March 2010 (UTC)

..."you may want to check out the Color Blender tool..." Oooh, shiny. Thanks. I'm liking #FFE670; its a blend of the soft yellow in the left background and the bold gold of the site. Anyone else? --Revanche ^{(talk|contribs)} 18:42, 26 March 2010 (UTC)

I'm extremely busy right now and don't really have time to contribute right now, but I have to chime in here: Personally, I disagree with Revanche's notion of keeping BTW in-universe (how would you justify OOC articles like Jordan Weisman or List of BattleTech products?). That aside, I wonder if we could create a Game Rules template for what you're going. It would provide a prominent frame outside of the normal article text, possibly save a lot of typing, and help by giving a pre-made format for noting down rules. Variables should be Source|Brief rules description. I'll revisit this when I have more time, give me a week. Frabby 21:19, 24 March 2010 (UTC)

LOL. Yeah, you're my primary opponent to that concept (in-character researchers), but we'll address that in a different setting. However, it sounds like you're in agreement with the idea of breaking out rules in the above style, but have a 'quick-start' idea for soing so. I'm interested in your idea.--Revanche ^{(talk|contribs)} 11:36, 26 March 2010 (UTC)

I'd like to offer up Gauss Rifle as an example of the way I handled this. --Scaletail 00:47, 25 March 2010 (UTC)

The reason I'm not partial to all italics is that the game rules material doesn't segregate itself well enough from the overall article, especially when it is likely there are other aspects of an article that may also use italics. --Revanche ^{(talk|contribs)} 11:36, 26 March 2010 (UTC)

To recap a little. I think we have agreed that rules should be put into into a box, and that part is mostly down to decide upon a color. However, what should we do about the old vs new rules? That still needs to be discussed. A page that really shows the problem is Cockpit Command Console. --Neufeld 14:42, 27 March 2010 (UTC)

Game Data in articles

While related, this is a separate discussion from how rules are to be presented (above). Please continue in that discussion, as well.

I'd like to discuss the 'character' of articles dealing with in-universe subjects ('Mechs, bios, etc.), when rules and gaming information are included. I wish I could remember the location of the discussion, but I thought one Editor responded well to another Editor's query about items in infoboxes by saying we tended to shy away from actual gaming data (armor amount, superstructure, etc.), but describing them as they might be discussed in a Jane's narrative (ex: "light on armor", "built with an extremely strong hull", etc.). Originally, this has been true, but done without a policy regarding this. Now, largely in part due to requests to me to include them, the infoboxes come out and explicitly state this data, which (IMO) robs both the in-universe encyclopedic character of the article and potential material to discuss in the narrative sections of the article.

What I'm asking for here is a conversation as to how we want articles to be used: are they TRO-like discussions of the fictional subject, are they real world encyclopedic metasources for both in-universe and gaming data? Do we want to strip gaming data out of these articles? Do we want to be more inclusive of it?

I'm going to weigh in following the first comments made by others, but please be aware of two points: 1) what we decide here does have far-reaching implications (it might be its own policy) and, 2) (more for Frabby) I'm not attempting to pursue my interest in making Editors 'in-character' Sarna researchers with this discussion. --Revanche ^{(talk|contribs)} 12:01, 26 March 2010 (UTC)

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